Serious Accident in Thailand

[Admin_2]

This spawned from my journal I just posted here:

http://www.thailandfriends.com/index.php?op=modload&name=Journal&view=journal&juid=86920&jid=69670

If you were to see an accident where some people were seriously injured in Thailand, would you go and help? My first reaction a few years ago would have been, "Of course, what kind of a question is that?" I know basic first aid including CPR, and can keep a straight head in emergency situations.

However, I hear so many stories of people in Thailand (especially foreigners) who go and try to help the victims and end up getting hauled off and forced to pay fines...or even worse, getting arrested for being involved in the situation.

It's sad, but I would second guess going to help a stranger who was seriously hurt in an accident. If the situation were to arise, my guess would be that I would go and do my best to help...but with reservations.

[eagle]

That is sad ! I'm sure the language barrier is a problem in a crisis but if you see someone you can help it would be hard for me to not try as you said Rob with reservations. Do you have to bribe a cop to help victims ?

[pandorea]

Some years ago, my father helped a girl (12 years old) who got hit by a car in BKK. He drove her to a hospital, contacted her school (she was in her school uniform) and her parents. He didn't have any problem with the police or anyone. He was lucky.

I won't involve as much as my dad did, I'm afraid. I might call for an ambulance or for police or maybe first help the victim but not more than that.

[Stramash]

What is the Bystander Effect?

The term bystander effect refers to the phenomenon in which the greater the number of people present, the less likely people are to help a person in distress. When an emergency situation occurs, observers are more likely to take action if there are few or no other witnesses.

In a series of classic study, researchers Bibb Latane and John Darley found that the amount of time it takes the participant to take action and seek help varies depending on how many other observers are in the room. In one experiment, subjects were placed in one of three treatment conditions: alone in a room, with two other participants or with two confederates who pretended to be normal participants.

As the participants sat filling out questionnaires, smoke began to fill the room. When participants were alone, 75% reported the smoke to the experimenters. In contrast, just 38% of participants in a room with two other people reported the smoke. In the final group, the two confederates in the experiment noted the smoke and then ignored it, which resulted in only 10% of the participants reporting the smoke.

Example of the Bystander Effect

The most frequently cited example of the bystander effect in introductory psychology textbooks is the brutal murder of a young woman named Catherine "Kitty" Genovese. On Friday, March 13, 1964, 28-year-old Genovese was returning home from work. As she approached her apartment entrance, she was attacked and stabbed by a man later identified as Winston Moseley.

Despite Genovese’s repeated cries for help, none of the dozen or so people in the nearby apartment building who heard her cries called police for help. The attack first began at 3:20 AM, but it was not until 3:50 AM that someone first contacted police.

Initially reported in a 1964 New York Times article, the article sensationalized the case, despite a number of factual inaccuracies. While frequently cited in psychology textbooks, an article in the September 2007 issue of American Psychologist concluded that the story is largely misrepresented mostly due to the inaccuracies repeatedly published in newspaper articles and textbooks.

Explanations for the Bystander Effect

There are two major factors that contribute to the bystander effect. First, the presence of other people creates a diffusion of responsibility. Because there are other observers, individuals do not feel as much pressure to take action, since the responsibility to take action is thought to be shared among all of those present.

The second reason is the need to behave in correct and socially acceptable ways. When other observers fail to react, individuals often take this as a signal that a response is not needed or not appropriate. Other researchers have found that onlookers are less likely to intervene if the situation is ambiguous. In the case of Kitty Genovese, many of the 38 witnesses reported that they believed that they were witnessing a "lover’s quarrel," and did not realize that the young woman was actually being murdered.

(http://psychology.about.com/od/socialpsychology/a/bystandereffect.htm)

[Crustyjuggler]

Some cultures don't ever seem to want help in this way, like it a sign of weakness or some pathetic cultural excuse like that.. Very sad if you get trouble for just helping another human being in another country, that said some people/s are less human than others....

I would still help or offer to help in Thailand, it's built in; it's the way i was raised...

[Stramash]

I had read about the Kitty Genovese incident a few years ago, but came across this article on the 'bystander effect' more recently.

It does seem to be something not peculiar to Thailand. I can remember a few of Dave's horror stories from Phuket and elsewhere but it happens every day in virtually every country.

So the lesson seems to be; if you are going to be murdered, attacked or set on fire, try and make sure you do it in a non crowded area so there is more chance of someone reporting it!!!

[English_Bob]

I would help - and I have several times already in UK and Thailand.

I have heard horror stories, but so far I haven't had any problems.

[alan675]

  Japamerican said:

If you were to see an accident where some people were seriously injured in Thailand, would you go and help?

If it's a serious injury, and lots of blood around, you would have to consider the chances of HIV, Hep B or Hep C transmission - one small scratch is all it takes ...... :idea:

[olympos]

  Japamerican said:

If you were to see an accident where some people were seriously injured in Thailand, would you go and help?

Yes, i would. :wink:

[Gorgeous]

Seriously, I'm not sure if I would because I will not know how serious of that injured and if I do something wrong maybe just a bit wrong I could send that person to death but I'd call someone to help :?

[admin]

As sad as this may sound . . . I would probably be quick to help fellow farangs and would have to think a bit to help Thais. This has nothing to do with my desire to help people but possible legal issues.

[DANNO]

  alan675 said:

  Japamerican said:

If you were to see an accident where some people were seriously injured in Thailand, would you go and help?

If it's a serious injury, and lots of blood around, you would have to consider the chances of HIV, Hep B or Hep C transmission - one small scratch is all it takes ...... :idea:

I am with Bob ( and several others) on this . have responed, several times ...

blood borne pathogens , it is possible...

but there a much bigger risks in life sorry you don't consider --you react!

--- and in these times with cell phone to call EMTs; a person on the scene can make more of a difference in the minutes before they arrive...

legal stuff be damned

[Admin_2]

  DANNO said:

  alan675 said:

  Japamerican said:

If you were to see an accident where some people were seriously injured in Thailand, would you go and help?

If it's a serious injury, and lots of blood around, you would have to consider the chances of HIV, Hep B or Hep C transmission - one small scratch is all it takes ...... :idea:

I am with Bob ( and several others) on this . have responed, several times ...

blood borne pathogens , it is possible...

but there a much bigger risks in life sorry you don't consider --you react!

--- and in these times with cell phone to call EMTs; a person on the scene can make more of a difference in the minutes before they arrive...

legal stuff be damned

In America, yes...BUT...

Even the EMT's here are mafia. There are a couple of groups that get paid for who gets to the scene first. I've seen "EMT's" wave off another couple of "EMT's" with a gun one mile from the accident scene. Regardless, when they arrive on the scene, you leave it in their hands.

This reminds me of one semi-related incident I had when I was living near Ratchada. I was out one evening running with Yoma, and heard a woman crying...as I got closer I heard a *smack* and more wailing. It was a guy sitting on his motorcycle cussing out his girlfriend for whatever reason, and he had already hit her at least twice.

This gets my blood boiling. My wife has correctly taught me to stay far away from these situations despite how I feel. Yes, in America you go up to the couple and at least try to stop it if not beat the shit out of the guy right then and there. You don't do this in Thailand (unless you are English_Bob)...especially on a street that you plan to frequent in the future.

I went up with Yoma across the street from the couple and told Yoma there was a cat in the nearby vicinity. Yoma starts barking like crazy and the guy puts his "gf" on his motorcycle and they drive off. That's about as involved as I'll get between a Thai on Thai dispute.

[Sukhumvit_Farang]

When I first came to Thailand many years ago, a friend who had been living here for a long time warned me: "If you ever see an accident in Thailand in which someone is hurt, DO NOT under any circumstances stop to help. The police will assume that you caused the accident and you will be forced to pay." I'm sure my friend didn't get this opinion from nothing.

I find it sickening that things are like this, but it is a reality of living in Thailand.

Conclusion: If I saw someone hurt in an accident in Thailand, I would not stop to help. But I would try to notify someone who might be able to do something about it - most likely by calling a Thai friend and asking them to notify the authorities.

[alan675]

  Japamerican said:

  DANNO said:

  alan675 said:

  Japamerican said:

If you were to see an accident where some people were seriously injured in Thailand, would you go and help?

If it's a serious injury, and lots of blood around, you would have to consider the chances of HIV, Hep B or Hep C transmission - one small scratch is all it takes ...... :idea:

I am with Bob ( and several others) on this . have responed, several times ...

blood borne pathogens , it is possible...

but there a much bigger risks in life sorry you don't consider --you react!

--- and in these times with cell phone to call EMTs; a person on the scene can make more of a difference in the minutes before they arrive...

legal stuff be damned

In America, yes...BUT...

Even the EMT's here are mafia. There are a couple of groups that get paid for who gets to the scene first. I've seen "EMT's" wave off another couple of "EMT's" with a gun one mile from the accident scene. Regardless, when they arrive on the scene, you leave it in their hands.

An interesting piece on the so-called EMT's from Australia's "The Age" newspaper:

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/bangkoks-bodysnatchers-beat-traffic-to-save-lives-20091110-i7cl.html

[PeeMarc]

Its not just in Thailand. It seems to be everywhere in Asia.

A few years ago, I was in a taxi heading to Hanoi airport. Along the highway I saw an accident ahead where a guy came off his bike with his wife or gf. By the time we got there (the traffic slowed down dramatically after accident happened) the girl who was unhurt was sitting on the side of the road with her mans bleeding head in here lap. She was screaming and crying and the guy was unconscious and very pale.

At first, my taxi driver would not stop, despite me insisting he stop NOW. I ran back to see what I could do. The girl didn't speak any English at all and was in shock and hysteria. I told my taxi driver to help me take him to hospital, but he refused and just stood back watching. He wouldn't even make a call to any emergency people nor would he help me get a number for me to call anyone. I knew no-one in Hanoi I could call.

I ran out onto the road and tried to stop any car to help take this dying guy to hospital. But they just slowed down, looked and sped off. NO-one around seemed to give a **** at all. It wasnt their problem.

I kept checking his vital signs and tried to find a way to stop his bleeding but it was just so bad. By now there was a pool of blood all around and it was obvious he was gonna die there in his wifes arms.

I felt so helpless and I cursed all the people around and cursed humanity for this tragic scene.

I kept trying to flag down any driver to help. But it was all in vain. The man finally died and all I could do was just leave them there and hope some Vietnamese person would eventually help them, since my taxi driver just refused and kept threatening to leave without me if I didnt get back in taxi.

Needless to say, I missed my flight. And what was even more shameful was that the taxi drier kept his ******* meter running the whole time and insisted I pay for the stop. I threw the cash in his face and told him to go to hell.

[Admin_2]

  PeeMarc said:

Its not just in Thailand. It seems to be everywhere in Asia.

A few years ago, I was in a taxi heading to Hanoi airport. Along the highway I saw an accident ahead where a guy came off his bike with his wife or gf. By the time we got there (the traffic slowed down dramatically after accident happened) the girl who was unhurt was sitting on the side of the road with her mans bleeding head in here lap. She was screaming and crying and the guy was unconscious and very pale.

At first, my taxi driver would not stop, despite me insisting he stop NOW. I ran back to see what I could do. The girl didn't speak any English at all and was in shock and hysteria. I told my taxi driver to help me take him to hospital, but he refused and just stood back watching. He wouldn't even make a call to any emergency people nor would he help me get a number for me to call anyone. I knew no-one in Hanoi I could call.

I ran out onto the road and tried to stop any car to help take this dying guy to hospital. But they just slowed down, looked and sped off. NO-one around seemed to give a sh*t at all. It wasnt their problem.

I kept checking his vital signs and tried to find a way to stop his bleeding but it was just so bad. By now there was a pool of blood all around and it was obvious he was gonna die there in his wifes arms.

I felt so helpless and I cursed all the people around and cursed humanity for this tragic scene.

I kept trying to flag down any driver to help. But it was all in vain. The man finally died and all I could do was just leave them there and hope some Vietnamese person would eventually help them, since my taxi driver just refused and kept threatening to leave without me if I didnt get back in taxi.

Needless to say, I missed my flight. And what was even more shameful was that the taxi drier kept him meter running the whole time and insisted I pay for the stop. I threw the cash in his face and told him to go to hell.

Once about 5 years ago I was on Sathorn Road coming home. I get out of the taxi and see two kids on the street looking down at something. I glanced over and saw one of the kids bleeding profusely from his arm...they were about 12-14 years old and this was at about 11 pm at night.

I couldn't speak much Thai except for pai rongpayaban (go to the hospital). I got my security guard to come over (who was watching this entire thing from before I got there), and he was useless as well. It turns out the kid put his fist through a window in a fit of rage.

He passed out, but still had a pulse. I tied his arm up with some dirty ribbon from 7/11. EVERY taxi refused to take him 1 kilometer to St. Louis Hospital...even a couple pointed out that the blood would make the car dirty...Talk about culture shock. I was about to explode or take this kid on my shoulders down the road.

Finally one agreed to go after I offered 1,000 baht...money talks, but common courtesy doesn't.

[hyper223]

The consistent advice I've heard is:

1. Thailand/SE Asia: Walk away, or you'll be blamed/fined/squeezed for money. This applies both for accidents you were not even remotely involved in, and those you didn't cause but were injured by (such as being in a taxi when it hits someone). No matter what the circumstances, you are the (rich) foreigner, so you pay.

2. In the USA, walk away, or they'll sue you for not providing the 100% correct medical care that would result in an optimum outcome, or even if you did, still sue you because of emotional trauma. And then file criminal charges. And then sue again.

I'm not sure what I would do in an actual situation.

[skomaladat]

  hyper223 said:

The consistent advice I've heard is:

1. Thailand/SE Asia: Walk away, or you'll be blamed/fined/squeezed for money. This applies both for accidents you were not even remotely involved in, and those you didn't cause but were injured by (such as being in a taxi when it hits someone). No matter what the circumstances, you are the (rich) foreigner, so you pay.

2. In the USA, walk away, or they'll sue you for not providing the 100% correct medical care that would result in an optimum outcome, or even if you did, still sue you because of emotional trauma. And then file criminal charges. And then sue again.

I'm not sure what I would do in an actual situation.

I understand that in Saudi, the last person that touches the dead person may be charged with murder, even though you may be a very qualified first-aider.

It would depend on the whom and what you are. If the "helper" is a first-aider and there is a honest case that there is no harassment of any sort when the victim dies, help is should be rightfully given. If not a first-aider, let your fingers do the walking (call police or ambulance on your mobile) and get away from the vicstim.... he/she needs breathing space

[PeeMarc]

Last week, my lovely dog kindly brought to me a pigeon and sat their with the bird held gently in her mouth.

When i finally and carefully got the bird out of her mouth and lay in on the ground to see if it was ok, i could clearly see it would never fly again. It just lay there twisted and panting and looking up at me.

What to do?

Well where I come from, I was brought up to do whatever I could for a living thing so that a) I could help save its life... or ease its suffering...or both.

I feel the same about humans too. And I know that if I see someone suffering, and I can do something to help, I would do it in a flash, regardless of what may or may not happen.

In the case of the bird, all I could do, after some thought, was drop a brick on its head, killing it instantly. If felt so sad and hurt inside that I was in this situation. But to me, the thought of that poor bird suffering before the inevitable death was worse than the act of putting it out of its misery and ending the pain quickly.

But, to many people, especially Asians, this seems the wrong thing to do. "Put it outside and leave it to Nature to take care".... "Don't get involved or interfere with its Life Journey."... "its not for you to get involved in this way".

I pray then that I don't get into an accident myself here in Thailand, because it would seem that my fellow humans would just leave me to die anyway.

[SoBeIt]

I feel abit sad after reading this thread..

[Admin_2]

  SoBeIt said:

I feel abit sad after reading this thread..

Marc's fault...the heartless pigeon killer that he is.

:shock:

Actually I'd do and have done the same. It's really tough to put an end to it, but I believe it's the right thing to do.

[SoBeIt]

  Japamerican said:

  SoBeIt said:

I feel abit sad after reading this thread..

Marc's fault...the heartless pigeon killer that he is.

:shock:

Actually I'd do and have done the same. It's really tough to put an end to it, but I believe it's the right thing to do.

This reminds me Mercy Killing..

The case has generated a heated debate in Sweden now.

"Doctor charged over baby's beath"http://www.thelocal.se/24724/20100201/

"The three-month-old baby was terminally ill with serious brain damage after having been born 15 weeks premature. The birth was complicated and the baby was born unconscious due to a lack of oxygen.

The baby girl's condition worsened when a nurse administered an overdose of saline solution at birth.

A subsequent ultrasound revealed that the newborn had suffered from cerebral haemorrhaging on both sides of her brain."

I like a comment from a guy.. he said that..

"Our sense of the value of life is .... politically correct but morally bankrupt."

[Stramash]

  alan675 said:

  Japamerican said:

If you were to see an accident where some people were seriously injured in Thailand, would you go and help?

If it's a serious injury, and lots of blood around, you would have to consider the chances of HIV, Hep B or Hep C transmission - one small scratch is all it takes ...... :idea:

slightly more than a small scratch;

usually needs to be significant transfer of blood, tissue or semen. Obviously if the injured person is bleeding profusely, then there is a danger of blood splashing into your mouth or eye (or if you have broken skin). But you can get Hep Bvaccination, and Hep C is treatable. But in this day and age a certain amount of cution is understandable.

Due to my work, I do have a Hep B vaccination and I also carry a mouth barrier in case I ever have to administer CPR (it comes in a pcket slightly larger than a condom so really everyone should get one) and we also have rubber gloves in every room. But of course that is within a specialist service; cant expect everyone to carry these (other than perhaps the mouthguard) though you could have rubber gloves in your car (why do you think it's called the 'glove box')

[Hobbes]

  Iain_D said:

What is the Bystander Effect?

The term bystander effect refers to the phenomenon in which the greater the number of people present, the less likely people are to help a person in distress. When an emergency situation occurs, observers are more likely to take action if there are few or no other witnesses.

In a series of classic study, researchers Bibb Latane and John Darley found that the amount of time it takes the participant to take action and seek help varies depending on how many other observers are in the room. In one experiment, subjects were placed in one of three treatment conditions: alone in a room, with two other participants or with two confederates who pretended to be normal participants.

As the participants sat filling out questionnaires, smoke began to fill the room. When participants were alone, 75% reported the smoke to the experimenters. In contrast, just 38% of participants in a room with two other people reported the smoke. In the final group, the two confederates in the experiment noted the smoke and then ignored it, which resulted in only 10% of the participants reporting the smoke.

Example of the Bystander Effect

The most frequently cited example of the bystander effect in introductory psychology textbooks is the brutal murder of a young woman named Catherine "Kitty" Genovese. On Friday, March 13, 1964, 28-year-old Genovese was returning home from work. As she approached her apartment entrance, she was attacked and stabbed by a man later identified as Winston Moseley.

Despite Genovese’s repeated cries for help, none of the dozen or so people in the nearby apartment building who heard her cries called police for help. The attack first began at 3:20 AM, but it was not until 3:50 AM that someone first contacted police.

Initially reported in a 1964 New York Times article, the article sensationalized the case, despite a number of factual inaccuracies. While frequently cited in psychology textbooks, an article in the September 2007 issue of American Psychologist concluded that the story is largely misrepresented mostly due to the inaccuracies repeatedly published in newspaper articles and textbooks.

Explanations for the Bystander Effect

There are two major factors that contribute to the bystander effect. First, the presence of other people creates a diffusion of responsibility. Because there are other observers, individuals do not feel as much pressure to take action, since the responsibility to take action is thought to be shared among all of those present.

The second reason is the need to behave in correct and socially acceptable ways. When other observers fail to react, individuals often take this as a signal that a response is not needed or not appropriate. Other researchers have found that onlookers are less likely to intervene if the situation is ambiguous. In the case of Kitty Genovese, many of the 38 witnesses reported that they believed that they were witnessing a "lover’s quarrel," and did not realize that the young woman was actually being murdered.

(http://psychology.about.com/od/socialpsychology/a/bystandereffect.htm)

Interesting that Iain.

Many years back, I was going home after picking up my dad from the airport in Harare. About a 100 and a few kilometres in the journey a big Landcruiser was in a mighty hurry to get to wherever it was going. 15 minutes later there was a line of cars and all traffic had stopped. We got out to see what happened and it turned out a VW Golf had come out of one of the many farm roads and the Landcruiser had slammed into. The VW Golf was lying on its roof in the field with about 2 dozen people standing around. One guy who said he was an off-duty police officer tried to get some people to help him but most were really just gawking around. The women driver was still lying in the car on the roof, moaning. She hadn't worn the seatbelt.

Because all the doors had buckled and couldn't be opened and the roof caved in for the windows not give access to the women, this police guy had the 'cunning' idea to roll the car back on its wheels.

So, I couldn't belief my eyes when my dad and I got there and these chaps were starting to rock the car with women starting to wail even louder. I told them to stop with that nonsense and we need to get the doors open to pull the women out. Luckily I always kept my toolbox in the trunk. I ran back to my car got the tool box out and then hack-sawed through door and the door post until we could get it open with a crowbar.

More people came and they all just looked on. Some where trying to console the women who had driven the Landcruiser who was all in tears although given the stupid speed she was going on I couldn't really sympathize much with here.

When we got the door open I could crawl inside and pull the women from the wreckage. By that time an ambulance from Marondera had arrived and a news crew too.

I didn't see the news but friends told me later that the women died in hospital. Well, but you got to try anyway...

[drlovelife8]

A few months a go I saw an accident near Emporium.

I did help. I got the people taken to hospital,there bodies were twisted and f**ked.

NOBODY else there even lifted a finger and that includes 2 police officers who simply turned away. I guess if they cant see it it isnt there.

I have no idea what happened at hospital and I didn't take any contact details but I feel so good that I helped.

Some people are flight, some are fight.

Fight or flight syndrome