How long is too long?

[DJTX]

Every guy (well almost) wants that girl who isn't too easy to get into bed (challenge) but who is not too too hard to get into bed. That is for "him". He also wants the girl who was the exact opposite with other guys - very very very difficult to get into bed...

[Angel_Master]

Some great posts in the tread I must say.

zues > some excellent points.. and quips ;-) enjoyed reading.

P59:

Guys is there a point where you will give up a great woman just because she won't put out (honestly?)?

Yep there is a point that I would give up. But not only because she wouldn't "put out"

If we were doing everythng else but not having intercourse I wouldn't be that stressed...she obviously has a reason or just isn't ready...If the relationship had been going on that long I'd expect to be able to discuss it with her...By rights I should know her well enough by then to know why we weren't having sex..and how she thought about it..

If there wasn't any intimacy beyond the occaisional kiss...well I''d guess she either liked me as a friend (and didn't want to ruin it) or maybe she didn't like me enough...who knows...Whatever the reason I'm sure I'd ask before giving up on an otherwise "great woman. I cetainly couldn't adhere to a strick timetable either..."right honey its third base tonight or I'm outta here"..

After all everybody is different...some relationships survive for years with very little sex.....others need it daily...errr I'm one of the latter :shock:

Some good points that could apply for some people sometimes. But, I must say I didn't buy it either! hahaha.. who are you trying to catch?

I liked zeus's post better were he admits that when dating someone for a year before getting action he was also seeing other women. Now, that is honest.

Yep there is a point that I would give up.

PD,

Probably should have stopped there before launching into the 'I wouldnt really care if she just wanted to be friends' diatribe.

You know I am not convinced that any girl believes that crap from anyone, anymore - and if you are going to pull it off convincingly you need a different handle - PattayaDaz just doesnt cut it.

Good retort robbie.. you guys crack me up!!

[Angel_Master]

And this is exactly the point of my question...if I met a great guy, I'd wonder what exactly he wanted if, after a few dates he didn't seem to be attracted to me physically...bear in mind "attracted to me" does not mean "have sex", I wouldn't waste time or emotional investment beyond a month or so if I thought his intentions were just friendly and mine were romantic. My question was...how long would *you* wait to find out?

Yes, I would agree that a month or so, i.e. three or four proper dates, is about right, but then it is time to take the relationship to the next level, or I would have difficulty believing that she is really not just interested in being friends. Now, making out without having sex would certainly dispell that concern, but making out without having sex repeatedly would lead me to believe she had some hang ups regarding sex.

Of course, my patience also depends on who pays for dinner, drinks, movies, taxis, etc. and where we agree to meet relative to her place or mine.

I guess another factor that I would also consider in how long I was willing to wait would be her level of experience, i.e. How many relationships she had been in, and the nature of those previous relationships.

[Princess]

Now, making out without having sex would certainly dispell that concern, but making out without having sex repeatedly would lead me to believe she had some hang ups regarding sex.

Of course, my patience also depends on who pays for dinner, drinks, movies, taxis, etc. and where we agree to meet relative to her place or mine.

I guess another factor that I would also consider in how long I was willing to wait would be her level of experience, i.e. How many relationships she had been in, and the nature of those previous relationships.

:shock: *Stares open-mouthed*

That is so ridiculous I can't help but say ... You MUST be joking!

If a girl is not willing to shag you, then that means she's got issues with sex? Who are you...Cassanova?

So in other words you expect sex as a payment for all the money you spend on dating a girl. If she is not willing to repay you sexually then her time and comapny are not worth your money?

And if a girl has had say...3 boyfriends before you she's a slut and must put out as opposed to a girl who has had one or none? Wow...you CANNOT be serious.

[Angel_Master]

Now, making out without having sex would certainly dispell that concern, but making out without having sex repeatedly would lead me to believe she had some hang ups regarding sex.

Of course, my patience also depends on who pays for dinner, drinks, movies, taxis, etc. and where we agree to meet relative to her place or mine.

I guess another factor that I would also consider in how long I was willing to wait would be her level of experience, i.e. How many relationships she had been in, and the nature of those previous relationships.

:shock: *Stares open-mouthed*

That is so ridiculous I can't help but say ... You MUST be joking!

If a girl is not willing to shag you, then that means she's got issues with sex? Who are you...Cassanova?

So in other words you expect sex as a payment for all the money you spend on dating a girl. If she is not willing to repay you sexually then her time and comapny are not worth your money?

And if a girl has had say...3 boyfriends before you she's a slut and must put out as opposed to a girl who has had one or none? Wow...you CANNOT be serious.

Of course I'm Casanova, you mean you just figured that out now? hahahaha

well when you put it like that.. no, for sure i'm not serious, and i didn't mean it that way.

First of all I don't expect any girl to shag me ever because I bought her dinner or anything else. Or because I'm so dam irresistible. Some girls want to and some don't. I only meant that for me when a girl who I've been dating for a month or so is willing to make out again and again but is not willing to shag then there must be some reason for that. Obviously she is attacted to me, and wants to have a relationship, so for me it is normal to begin having sex at that point in the relationship and see how things progress from there. But some girls do have reasons why they don't want to have sex at that point in the relationship. In my insignificant opinion those reasons are hangups, or maybe she just doen't enjoy sex so wants to put it off as long as possible.

I am willing to pay for everything initially in order to spend time with a girl who I am interested in. But because of a number of negative experiences with being to willing to pay and show a girl a good time, I have become rather sensitive to feeling like I might be just a guy to her who picks up the tab. And just maybe she wouldn't have time for me if I didn't. So, to avoid wasting my time and money on a girl who isn't worth of it. I don't go along with that kind of situation for very long. If she only wants to be friends then she should pay her share of the costs of going out together, income disparity taken into consideration. My time and company is just as valuable has is hers. I should not have to pay for a girls company.

Now the situation changes once she moves to girlfriend status, and that can only happen for me after begining to have sex regularly. If she has little or no income of her own, I need to show her that I can take care of her needs. At the same time she has to show me that she can take care of my needs. Yes, one of my needs happens to sex. Good sex! Frequently! If she is my kind of girl it is also one of her needs.

I think that in general people who have had plenty of sexual experiences with a number of different partners require less time to feel comfortable with someone new and are less bothered about having sex with someone without also having a relationship develop. So, yes, I do expect that a girl who has been around a bit would generally require less time before having sex than a girl who has not. In fact if a girl who has never been there might need a lot of time and I would be happy to give her all the time she would need so long as the relationship was clearly progressing otherwise. Not a situation I have been in for quite some time. ;-)

[PattayaDaz]

Well Robbie at least you didn't chew my arse off..

but as for

R36

The only thing I find slightly strange.... is that you always seem to assume that your lifestyle, is a lifestyle that other people would aspire to...

far from it...My lifestyle is pretty strange...However judging by the way the expat resident numbers have grown (in pattaya) in the last five years. Some people must want something similar...

The diference as I see it is that unlike the mojority of them I don't expect to be shacking up with an ex BG at anytime soon....nor buying them a house, car or fluffy dog.

You are right in your assesment of the demographics of Pattaya...A large proportion of the residents here are middle aged, divorced and deluded...what I objected to was being lumped in with them purely from the fact that I live in the vicinity...

Even I would have a hard time explaining why I still like Pattaya it has changed alot since my first visit in early 90's. But I won't deny that when I first arrived the non stop nitelife, cheap booze and naked girls did colour my impessions..However that is a long time ago and now I just enjoy the social life I have here...Again if I was only interested in meeting BG's why spend so much time on TF...?... CLUE.....BG's don't interest me..probably for the same reasons they don't interest you....(I'm taking it for granted that you are also single, hetro, educated and finantially secure)

Anyhow...no worries mate...the debate is always fun....

[zeusbheld]

Yep there is a point that I would give up.

PD,

Probably should have stopped there before launching into the 'I wouldnt really care if she just wanted to be friends' diatribe.

You know I am not convinced that any girl believes that crap from anyone, anymore - and if you are going to pull it off convincingly you need a different handle - PattayaDaz just doesnt cut it.

i actually have pulled off the "i wouldnt really care if she just wanted to be friends" thing many times, and generally actually ended up being friends with the girl in question...

i have a gf these days, so i dont really want much else from them than just being friends at this point...

so short verzion: sorry daz, zeusbheld is taken, but consider a similar handle, it *can* work... ya just gotta believe... can i get an 'amen'.

zbh

the kinder, gentler condescending prick

[DJTX]

This 'almost' :wink: brings up the old question - "can a man and a woman be 'just' friends".

As in the movie "When Harry Met Sally" . Harry is having a conversation with Sally about relationships between men and women. He tries to explains that if a man finds a woman attractive it is in reality a sexual interested in her. He states that a man cannot have just a friendly relationship with a worman. In response:

Sally: So what you're saying is a man can be friends only with unattractive women?

Harry: No, we pretty much want to nail them, too.

[Princess]

Of course I'm Casanova, you mean you just figured that out now? hahahaha

well when you put it like that.. no, for sure i'm not serious, and i didn't mean it that way.

First of all I don't expect any girl to shag me ever because I bought her dinner or anything else. Or because I'm so dam irresistible. Some girls want to and some don't. I only meant that for me when a girl who I've been dating for a month or so is willing to make out again and again but is not willing to shag then there must be some reason for that. Obviously she is attacted to me, and wants to have a relationship, so for me it is normal to begin having sex at that point in the relationship and see how things progress from there. But some girls do have reasons why they don't want to have sex at that point in the relationship. In my insignificant opinion those reasons are hangups, or maybe she just doen't enjoy sex so wants to put it off as long as possible.

I am willing to pay for everything initially in order to spend time with a girl who I am interested in. But because of a number of negative experiences with being to willing to pay and show a girl a good time, I have become rather sensitive to feeling like I might be just a guy to her who picks up the tab. And just maybe she wouldn't have time for me if I didn't. So, to avoid wasting my time and money on a girl who isn't worth of it. I don't go along with that kind of situation for very long. If she only wants to be friends then she should pay her share of the costs of going out together, income disparity taken into consideration. My time and company is just as valuable has is hers. I should not have to pay for a girls company.

Now the situation changes once she moves to girlfriend status, and that can only happen for me after begining to have sex regularly. If she has little or no income of her own, I need to show her that I can take care of her needs. At the same time she has to show me that she can take care of my needs. Yes, one of my needs happens to sex. Good sex! Frequently! If she is my kind of girl it is also one of her needs.

In fact if a girl who has never been there might need a lot of time and I would be happy to give her all the time she would need so long as the relationship was clearly progressing otherwise. Not a situation I have been in for quite some time. ;-)

First of all...uh...no you're not.

Secondly,ever consider the fact that women take longer to judge potential boyfriend material than men? Personally, if I was really into a guy, having sex too quickly would spoil all that. Ever consider that maybe you've given up on good women because your ego is in need of a massage...which the girl is taking her time to give?

As for girlfriend status being based on sex...well what can I say? Sex is replaceable...once she's fed up, she WILL move on.What if she sleeps with you and you're a lousy shag? (blame it on chemistry if not your skills)...the time you spend building a bond with her BEFORE sex is what will determine whether or not she gives you a second chance. If you haven't spent time building that bond, she's not willing to accept your faults (sexual or otherwise) and you end up being 'some guy I once had this thing with'.

No doubt your company is as valuable as her's but from what you say it seems like you're in the habit of entering every relationship with sex on top of your agenda. Women generally can smell that a mile away, as long as they are not too naiive.

I think that in general people who have had plenty of sexual experiences with a number of different partners require less time to feel comfortable with someone new and are less bothered about having sex with someone without also having a relationship develop. So, yes, I do expect that a girl who has been around a bit would generally require less time before having sex than a girl who has not

Uh wrong again. If the trend towards you is such then you're probably attracting women who want a walking ATM with a ****. Sex is not the same to women as it is to men...easy come, easy go...works both ways.

[robbie36]

Even I would have a hard time explaining why I still like Pattaya ...

And there you have it....

1. If you live in Pattaya you are bound to get lumped with 'farang who live in Pattaya'

2. If you live in Pattaya even the vaguely normal girls there turn out to be not that normal after all - effected by years of socialising in the BG/freelancer scene.

3. For the average guy it is a fun place to visit and observe but to live there will almost certainly give you a very skewed view of life.

4. Assuming you are bored by the 'bar girl environment' down there I just think it is extremely unlikely you wil find a decent well educated, attractive and well balanced Thai Girl in Pattaya.

PS. And that is why most Bangkok Expats (as opposed to Pattaya Sexpats) would never willingly choose to live in Pattaya.

[WiCKeDBiRD]

This 'almost' :wink: brings up the old question - "can a man and a woman be 'just' friends".

Of course, They can. < Well, for women.. we definitely do can.>

BUT.. the thing is "Women are Mmmm very complicated.. too many details and too different" .... So, I think its kind of hard to any man to really understand us and to manage to cope with us unless you are Gay.

As in the movie "When Harry Met Sally" . Harry is having a conversation with Sally about relationships between men and women. He tries to explains that if a man finds a woman attractive it is in reality a sexual interested in her. He states that a man cannot have just a friendly relationship with a worman. In response:

Sally: So what you're saying is a man can be friends only with unattractive women?

Harry: No, we pretty much want to nail them, too.

LOL

-WB-

[Angel_Master]

Of course I'm Casanova, you mean you just figured that out now? hahahaha

well when you put it like that.. no, for sure i'm not serious, and i didn't mean it that way.

First of all I don't expect any girl to shag me ever because I bought her dinner or anything else. Or because I'm so dam irresistible. Some girls want to and some don't. I only meant that for me when a girl who I've been dating for a month or so is willing to make out again and again but is not willing to shag then there must be some reason for that. Obviously she is attacted to me, and wants to have a relationship, so for me it is normal to begin having sex at that point in the relationship and see how things progress from there. But some girls do have reasons why they don't want to have sex at that point in the relationship. In my insignificant opinion those reasons are hangups, or maybe she just doen't enjoy sex so wants to put it off as long as possible.

I am willing to pay for everything initially in order to spend time with a girl who I am interested in. But because of a number of negative experiences with being to willing to pay and show a girl a good time, I have become rather sensitive to feeling like I might be just a guy to her who picks up the tab. And just maybe she wouldn't have time for me if I didn't. So, to avoid wasting my time and money on a girl who isn't worth of it. I don't go along with that kind of situation for very long. If she only wants to be friends then she should pay her share of the costs of going out together, income disparity taken into consideration. My time and company is just as valuable has is hers. I should not have to pay for a girls company.

Now the situation changes once she moves to girlfriend status, and that can only happen for me after begining to have sex regularly. If she has little or no income of her own, I need to show her that I can take care of her needs. At the same time she has to show me that she can take care of my needs. Yes, one of my needs happens to sex. Good sex! Frequently! If she is my kind of girl it is also one of her needs.

In fact if a girl who has never been there might need a lot of time and I would be happy to give her all the time she would need so long as the relationship was clearly progressing otherwise. Not a situation I have been in for quite some time. ;-)

First of all...uh...no you're not.

Secondly,ever consider the fact that women take longer to judge potential boyfriend material than men? Personally, if I was really into a guy, having sex too quickly would spoil all that. Ever consider that maybe you've given up on good women because your ego is in need of a massage...which the girl is taking her time to give?

As for girlfriend status being based on sex...well what can I say? Sex is replaceable...once she's fed up, she WILL move on.What if she sleeps with you and you're a lousy shag? (blame it on chemistry if not your skills)...the time you spend building a bond with her BEFORE sex is what will determine whether or not she gives you a second chance. If you haven't spent time building that bond, she's not willing to accept your faults (sexual or otherwise) and you end up being 'some guy I once had this thing with'.

No doubt your company is as valuable as her's but from what you say it seems like you're in the habit of entering every relationship with sex on top of your agenda. Women generally can smell that a mile away, as long as they are not too naiive.

I think that in general people who have had plenty of sexual experiences with a number of different partners require less time to feel comfortable with someone new and are less bothered about having sex with someone without also having a relationship develop. So, yes, I do expect that a girl who has been around a bit would generally require less time before having sex than a girl who has not

Uh wrong again. If the trend towards you is such then you're probably attracting women who want a walking ATM with a ****. Sex is not the same to women as it is to men...easy come, easy go...works both ways.

How would you know, try me!! hahaha.. Okay, I?m really joking here. Please understand. I just couldn't resist. But in truth I don't think I?m anything super. I do my best and that is it. Sometimes it is great and sometimes it isn?t. I have no illusions and really I don't believe I have much of an ego either. I could be wrong.

You have a good point that women in general take longer to judge potential boyfriend material than men. I think that is true. And I acknowledge that I should and I do take that into consideration whenever I feel that this is what is taking place. I do however consider having sex as part of the process of judging potential girlfriend material.

True, lousy shags can happen due to nothing more than state of mind and energy levels at the moment. Sometimes it just doesn't work out well the first time. And you are right that if only weak bonds have been built then a lousy shag can be all it takes for either person to give up. Actually I have noted before, that a girl might be holding off having sex because she is afraid she might be a disappointment in bed, and that will be the end of the developing relationship.

There are many important factors that come together to make up a good relationship, sex is only one of them, and it is not at the top of my agenda at all. In fact I really do think there are other factors that are more important in determining whether or not a relationship can work or not.

I would like to add that concerns I might be just a guy who will pick up the tab are only a factor with some women and would never be a factor with other women. I think the factors and actions on her part that would lead one to wonder are obvious enough.

It seems there are far too many women around who are just looking for a walking ATM. They can be difficult to avoid at times. But as soon as they find out I?m the cheapest bastard they ever met they don?t waste much time in making themselves scarce. Of course I?m not like that with all women, but as soon as I start to wonder if a girl is looking for a walking ATM or not, I get real cheap, start talking about taking the bus and the cost of things. Hahaha? My test, it seems to work well.

My decisions would never be based on how much experience a girl has, and only very slightly affected by it. But just like men, woman who have had plenty of sexual experiences are usually good in bed, and should a shag happen to not be the best are more likely to understand the reasons for that and not place too much importance on it.

The answer to your question would be quite different depending on who I was dating. It is not nearly as simple as I have made it here. How long I would be content to wait and whether or not I would not also date other women if dating someone for several months without having sex would really depend on who she was and my feelings towards her. (Yes, I do have feelings and they do in fact dependant many factors other than sex.) So, well I stated my general idea of what I think is ideal I would make huge exceptions for the right woman. Each person is different and I would not reject a great woman for this reason alone ever.

[sabaisabai]

For the guys:You've been on a couple of great dates with a really really lovely lady who you're really into-she's definitely girlfriend material. You haven't had sex yet. How long, in your opinion, should she play hard to get? (For you not to consider her a slut or a prude)

How long should she play hard to get?

Depends on how well she plays the game.

slut or prude? depends on how she feels about it herself. ( i wont judge anyone just cause she puts out on the first date)...

[bobbyboy112003]

For the ladies: You've been on a couple of dates with a really, really great guy who you're really into - he's definitely long-term / boyfriend material. You haven't had sex yet. How long, in your opinion, is it ok to make him wait for it? (Remember...you don't want to come across as a slut or a prude)

Hmm A longterm / boyfriend material type ... Maybe a few dinner , lunch or night out then going away somewhere for a weekend ... Then ya .. But I have to really like him and expecting a real relationship ..

But its hard to say , you know !! Sometime you wanna try the product first so you wont have to find an excuse to return it to the store .. .. :roll:

You're such a romantic

[Ammy]

A wise man said this to me long time ago when i asked him "how long is an appropriate time for a girl to jump on a guy she is dating with?"

he then replied "my view is that you should get the sex thing out of the way as soon as possible so that you can concentrate on the relationship" and i found its true!

so i would say... second date or thrid date... (personally) besides that, sex is very important issue in relationship and to the most answer of if you both are compatible enough in relationship.

and if a guy thinks its quite slutty for a girl to shag him on the second date then he is just a narrow minded person and i wouldnt want to go out with this kind of person either... :x

[Angel_Master]

Geopolitics, business rivalries, relationships, it's all about power. I'm not talking about greed for power, just power in an everyday, natural sense. Countries look at balance of power before screwing each other. Businesses balance economic power before screwing each other. Men and women, balance power before...um...

Let's not belittle it by calling it a game - it's just natural. I like the analogy of auditioning for a play ("...Um, next!..") Evidently, women understand this, but they're curious to know how much power they hold. That's why this discussion is going on in the first place. And I'll venture that - please feel free to disagree with me - the reason why some women like it when a guy acts like a perfect gentlemen is because they feel that he respects a woman's power - power to grant to him what he has already signaled he wants.

But that's just "being a gentleman". What about a man actually playing hard to get? Women, help me out here. My guess is that the reason why it starts turning (some) women on is that now, he's introduced his power chips into picture too. He's so happy in his own skin, oozing confidence, but not too arrogant, that he truly believes that he doesn't need to make it blatantly obvious that "You know, sleeping together is a really good idea..." It's not a glaring "Why", it's a quiet "Why not?"

I couldn't agree more. And this is largely what determines if a relationship can work or not, balance of power. If one parterner is ways holding back affection or sex, while the other is always wanting more, it just won't work. But it is wonderful when your constantly going back and forth on this one. And sometimes totally equal in your needs and power on this point.

There are other factors that can also be quite important in a relationship such as intellectual power or social power, I'm sure others can think of a lot more. Power in each area depends on ones use and understand these dynamics. While one person is strong in one area another can be strong in a different area. So long as the end result is a balance of power. It is also very helpful if ones understanding and use of a particular dynamic is not so different from ones partner that it just isn't possible to really comprehend what the other person is thinking.

A wise man said this to me long time ago when i asked him "how long is an appropriate time for a girl to jump on a guy she is dating with?"

he then replied "my view is that you should get the sex thing out of the way as soon as possible so that you can concentrate on the relationship" and i found its true!

I partly agree with you and in the past I would have totally agreed with you, but I have come to the conclustion that this is not actually the best way. I find that this can lead to ending up spending far to much time to find out that someone isn't really compable because many of us have this idea that we just can't give up easily on someone that we have started having sex with. While we can often end a developing relationship quite easily with someone we have only spent time talking and doing everyday things with. Or it can lead to just plain ******* around if we constantly find reasons why someone isn't compatable afterwards. I think this can work if neither person takes having sex seriously, and both people really are open to finding a long-term commited relationship. However, I think that one can make a reasonably good guess about sexual compatablity, so it isn't necessary to go there right away. It is nice to let the suspence build and a great feeling when you finally get there when sex is taken seriously. However, I will also add that the suspence can build to some irresistible levels pretty fast when either person or both start using seduction effectively! ;-)

[Angel_Master]

I'm here, na ja. What can I do for you? ;-) Missing me are you? 8)