Man Utd vs Arsenal

[Stramash]

...However, I do get annoyed when people make assumptions and statements without knowing all the facts.

seeing how often you log onto TF, you must be the biggest f*ckin' masochist on the planet.

yip. That statement was almost as ironic as me saying rudeness had no place on TF...

i just wanted to highlight it in a quotebox as it's one of the most outlandish things ever said on TF.

oh come on. It's not quite that outlandish! I do get annoyed in those instances. That doesn't alter the fact that it happens a lot, in fact everyday, but compared to some of the scribings of the koala or the marco types, I think outlandish is going a tad too far!!

[CiaranM]

...However, I do get annoyed when people make assumptions and statements without knowing all the facts.

seeing how often you log onto TF, you must be the biggest f*ckin' masochist on the planet.

facts !! facts !! this is TF ... we don't need no god damm,liberal, tree hugging f**king facts around here boy !!!

[zeusbheld]

...However, I do get annoyed when people make assumptions and statements without knowing all the facts.

seeing how often you log onto TF, you must be the biggest f*ckin' masochist on the planet.

yip. That statement was almost as ironic as me saying rudeness had no place on TF...

i just wanted to highlight it in a quotebox as it's one of the most outlandish things ever said on TF.

oh come on. It's not quite that outlandish!

now THAT was funny.

[zeusbheld]

...However, I do get annoyed when people make assumptions and statements without knowing all the facts.

seeing how often you log onto TF, you must be the biggest f*ckin' masochist on the planet.

facts !! facts !! this is TF ... we don't need no god damm,liberal, tree hugging f**king facts around here boy !!!

oh come on, have you seen the hippie "frankenfoods" rants? it ain't just conservatives with fact allergies.

[Guest marty]

...However, I do get annoyed when people make assumptions and statements without knowing all the facts.

seeing how often you log onto TF, you must be the biggest f*ckin' masochist on the planet.

haw haw ******* haw

a tf classic

[Guest marty]

Ciaran - you maybe right. I do get rather carried away when it comes to the Gooners. As I'm sure you can, I remember the times when we were pretty boll0cks and not winning too much, then Wenger came along and transformed not only our fortunes but also our style of play (see, I do like the dour French b*stard really).

Now I know what you're saying about total debt but much of that debt with regard to the Emirates is long term fixed rate bonds and, with our matchday income, is reckoned to be cleared by 2030. Our debt also includes the bank loans for redeveloping Highbury into housing. Granted, the speed with which we will see returns on that has been affected by the recession, but most of the development has been sold to overseas parties who see it as buy to let investments so there is no real problem with the cash flow on that aspect.

But I have never said I expected a huge transfer budget while we adjust; but you have to admit that Wenger has left some money unspent each year; even if he had bought 2 players at say 20 mill each over the last 4 years (the strong midfielder and centre back that is often bandied about) our finances could have coped.

But I have calmed down from my initial rants after the loss on Tuesday. I do think money will be released over the summer, no matter what happens in the potential takeover, and I think Wenger has accepted that players have to come in. I also accept that we would be hard pressed to find a tactician and talent spotter as good as Arsene is. (though off at a tangent, and I address this question to you Ciaran; is it only me that sometimes find his choice of leaving substitutions to very late in the game frustrating sometimes?)

So I will shut up about getting rid of Arsene, at least until this time next year, though hope you would concede that should we find ourselves in the same position 12 months from now, you might start thinking even slightly differently.

Marty - firstly, an apology for the **** comment. It was rude and rudeness has no place on TF. However, I do get annoyed when people make assumptions and statements without knowing all the facts.

Even in your reply you go 'so you've been twice, big deal'. Mate I don't have to list every game I have attended. Sure, it's a bit more difficult to do from Glasgow, but was in Hull for 3 years prior to this which made regular home and aways a lot more easy. Given I can get the occasional (around 3 or 4 a season) free tickets and will try and do as many of the northern away games as I can (basically anywhere north of Manchester) then I feel I do a lot better than many 'distance' fans.

I would also disagree with you that my views are becoming more isolated and ridiculous - surf any of the Arsenal related message boards and you will sense a growing tide of discontent.

You are completely right; we, or for that matter any other team, have no divine right to win or to qualify for Europe...but it is expected from the current 'top 4'. I say current because I feel that over the coming few years that 'Top 4' group will be severely challenged. More and more foreign investment will eventually close the gap between the other 16 teams in the premiership and the 4 'elite' clubs of the moment.So we should be seeking glory every year especially as it is only going to get more difficult as time passes.

Hey, if Wenger turns it around then I don't mind looking stupid, but I still feel the only way he CAN turn it around is by spending money. Other than his sometimes bizarre substitution habits, I highly rate Wenger as a tactician and as a developer of talent. And as I have said to Ciaran I have not been advocating spending silly money, but some transfer kitty has remained unspent over the last few years. At no pint (other than a dream aside regarding Kroenke injecting a 100 mill transfer kitty) have I advocated a silly season on transfers at Ashburton Grove. But gaps need to be plugged and that costs money.

I don't see the boardroom as being a current problem as far as the team are concerned. It seems pretty bloody obvious that Kroenke will reach the 30% required to trigger an automatic takeover attempt. Usmanov seems to have lost a little bit of steam over the last 2 years since his last shares spree, while Kroenke has gathered steam. Most of the major shareholders seem to be in favour of Kroenke so I predict that the takeover will be pretty much a bloodless coup.(mind you with Russian billionaires, predicting their behaviour can be risky!)

Of course all these words are pointless since I clearly don't know what I am talking about, well according to you. Sorry mate, but I think I do, at least to an extent. I may not know every figure on our balance books and every thought in Wenger's head, but I have one hell of a passion for my team, and granted, sometimes that passion makes me rant a little bit, but surely that passion is an integral part of the game?

But i feel as a lifelong fan I am entitled to those rants and opinions. Trust me, if Wenger buys some players and goes out and wins 2 trophies next season, I will be one of the first to shout his name from the rooftops. He transformed us as a team and I hope that this time next year I am posting on here about how great his tactics were in winning a CL semi final.

And I do think injuries really harmed our league prospects this year, but those injuries highlighted the lack of depth that is often our undoing. Perhaps if we had not had so many injuries to so many major players, the league table might read a bit differently. But if life was made of ifs and maybes...

oh, and if Kroenke does get in, can he bring back David Dein??

apology accepted.

i think the general point (perhaps not well made be myself) is that i felt people are overreacting to to a defensive error. wenger is a great manager and a great man. he will get it right and sooner than people think

my understanding is that the boardroom divisions are a lot deeper than people realise. yes, dein will more than likely be back if kroenke forces a takeover. however, there will be a little more money, but GPB300m needs to be repaid, and that is the priority as arsenal will not follow the glazer model and refinance with massive debt.

i like partick thistle btw

[Stramash]

Marty, the point with the debt for the new stadium is it is already sorted and will be cleared by 2030. May seem a long way off, but because of the way it is structured (long term fixed rate bonds), it doesn't hugely affect our yearly running, especially considering the huge increase in matchday revenue.

Plus, on top, is the revenue from the Highbury development, reckoned to be over 100 mill by the time its all sorted.

Again I have never advocated silly transfer funds, but like it or not, it is a fact that over the last 4 or 5 years, Wenger has not spent money that is there.

I think there will be funds made available over the summer. I am going to guess that there will be about 50 mill to spend, purely on the basis of what is needed. Now when you consider that even given the new stadium debt and other costs, we are still better off than we were previous to the stadium move.

And I dont think Gibbs' slip has been the cause of the reactions. Rather ending the season for the 4th time with nothing to show, and the injury crises highlighting a lack of depth are more likely causes.

But I do agree that Wenger has been a great manager and, given a couple of new players in the positions we need, he can bring back more silverware again.

What I can tell you with certainty is that there is more of a lean towards Kroenke than Usminov among the shareholders, and that there is a strong possibility that Kroenke will reach the 30% required before the end of this month. If/when this happens, I doubt there will be much of a 'war'. As I stated previously, a bloodless and swift coup is much more likely (and hopefully the red and yellow shirts will be united on this one)

Oh and by the way, you obviously know f*ck all about Scottish football.

The correct name of the team is;

Partick Thistle Nil

[CiaranM]

Ciaran - you maybe right. I do get rather carried away when it comes to the Gooners. As I'm sure you can, I remember the times when we were pretty boll0cks and not winning too much, then Wenger came along and transformed not only our fortunes but also our style of play (see, I do like the dour French b*stard really).

Now I know what you're saying about total debt but much of that debt with regard to the Emirates is long term fixed rate bonds and, with our matchday income, is reckoned to be cleared by 2030. Our debt also includes the bank loans for redeveloping Highbury into housing. Granted, the speed with which we will see returns on that has been affected by the recession, but most of the development has been sold to overseas parties who see it as buy to let investments so there is no real problem with the cash flow on that aspect.

But I have never said I expected a huge transfer budget while we adjust; but you have to admit that Wenger has left some money unspent each year; even if he had bought 2 players at say 20 mill each over the last 4 years (the strong midfielder and centre back that is often bandied about) our finances could have coped.

But I have calmed down from my initial rants after the loss on Tuesday. I do think money will be released over the summer, no matter what happens in the potential takeover, and I think Wenger has accepted that players have to come in. I also accept that we would be hard pressed to find a tactician and talent spotter as good as Arsene is. (though off at a tangent, and I address this question to you Ciaran; is it only me that sometimes find his choice of leaving substitutions to very late in the game frustrating sometimes?)

So I will shut up about getting rid of Arsene, at least until this time next year, though hope you would concede that should we find ourselves in the same position 12 months from now, you might start thinking even slightly differently.

Iain .... u r saying we should have spent 40 million a year for the last 4 years !!! believe it or not NOBODY has had a net spend of that .... even Chelski only average around 26 million a year how much money have they lost over the last 4/5 years plus a massive 500 million pound loan from roman !!

take a look at this website http://transferleague.co.uk/

now if we had spent the same as chelski, man ure and the rest then i would be questioning arsene a lot more .... but will the massive debt come back to bite some of these clubs in the ass in the not too distant future ??

[Stramash]

Ciaran - you maybe right. I do get rather carried away when it comes to the Gooners. As I'm sure you can, I remember the times when we were pretty boll0cks and not winning too much, then Wenger came along and transformed not only our fortunes but also our style of play (see, I do like the dour French b*stard really).

Now I know what you're saying about total debt but much of that debt with regard to the Emirates is long term fixed rate bonds and, with our matchday income, is reckoned to be cleared by 2030. Our debt also includes the bank loans for redeveloping Highbury into housing. Granted, the speed with which we will see returns on that has been affected by the recession, but most of the development has been sold to overseas parties who see it as buy to let investments so there is no real problem with the cash flow on that aspect.

But I have never said I expected a huge transfer budget while we adjust; but you have to admit that Wenger has left some money unspent each year; even if he had bought 2 players at say 20 mill each over the last 4 years (the strong midfielder and centre back that is often bandied about) our finances could have coped.

But I have calmed down from my initial rants after the loss on Tuesday. I do think money will be released over the summer, no matter what happens in the potential takeover, and I think Wenger has accepted that players have to come in. I also accept that we would be hard pressed to find a tactician and talent spotter as good as Arsene is. (though off at a tangent, and I address this question to you Ciaran; is it only me that sometimes find his choice of leaving substitutions to very late in the game frustrating sometimes?)

So I will shut up about getting rid of Arsene, at least until this time next year, though hope you would concede that should we find ourselves in the same position 12 months from now, you might start thinking even slightly differently.

Iain .... u r saying we should have spent 40 million a year for the last 4 years !!! believe it or not NOBODY has had a net spend of that .... even Chelski only average around 26 million a year how much money have they lost over the last 4/5 years plus a massive 500 million pound loan from roman !!

take a look at this website http://transferleague.co.uk/

now if we had spent the same as chelski, man ure and the rest then i would be questioning arsene a lot more .... but will the massive debt come back to bite some of these clubs in the a*s in the not too distant future ??

Mate, you misinterpreted my words; what I said was we coulkd have bought 2 players costing 20 mill each OVER the last 4 years. In other words, a total 'big' spend of 40 mill, not 40 mill a year!!!! And I was specifically referring to the 2 positions we need cover in.

At no point in this debate have I argued for us spending huge amounts every year. I dont want us to get into the debt ridden position of Man U, or the potentially precarious position of Chelsea.

Our debt is all well structured, payments are easily covered, and there is a realistic target for that debt being paid in full. So the last thing I want to see is us running up huge debts on top of that.

However, if Kroenke, as sems likely, does take over, I wont argue if he decides to stick 100 mill or so in purely for players!!!!

[CiaranM]

well ... we have never ever replaced viera or sol campbell and that without doubt has weakened the team considerably. allegedly we were in for vidic, but couldn't match man ure's wages, now he would have been a great signing and i think he only cost 7 or 8 million !!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/may/07/arsene-wenger-lawrence-donegan

interesting blog here mate ... where the clubs various debts r discussed ... although i'm not sure if i'm much wiser or more confused after reading it !! :roll: :roll:

[Stramash]

well ... we have never ever replaced viera or sol campbell and that without doubt has weakened the team considerably. allegedly we were in for vidic, but couldn't match man ure's wages, now he would have been a great signing and i think he only cost 7 or 8 million !!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/may/07/arsene-wenger-lawrence-donegan

interesting blog here mate ... where the clubs various debts r discussed ... although i'm not sure if i'm much wiser or more confused after reading it !! :roll: :roll:

apology accepted mate. :wink:

The blog didn't really discuss the clubs' debts per se, and I did get confused when they started talking about the Royal and Ancient (then realised quickly they had changed subject)

So, can we put the dissent aside, and agree that we could do with those 2 players as a matter of urgency?(and that we have to spend to get them?)

I do think that the takeover, if it happens, will be a swift one, in order to put a new regime in place and let Wenger know where he stands and what he can spend.

I agree with Marty that, should Kroenke take over, Dein may well be back at Ashburton Grove. Given Dein's close relationship with Wenger, that could only be good for the club and, if big Stan does inject transfer cash into the club, would help meld potential with proven talent.

It may be a nailbiting summer for Gooners fans as they wait to see all the possible permutations.

[LakeGeneve]

This is for Iain and Ciaran and their ongoing debate about the future of the Gunners;

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/sports/16831/arsenal-boss-could-be-sitting-pretty

[palmyfan]

Rumor,rumor:

Wenger want to buy Matuidi(defensive medfield)and he is also looking for Edin Dzeko.

Matuidi is the priority of Wenger and it think he gonna have him.The guy is real good and will be a damm good recrue for team.I dont know Edin Dzeko but i hope for the best.

[Stramash]

Rumor,rumor:

Wenger want to buy Matuidi(defensive medfield)and he is also looking for Edin Dzeko.

Matuidi is the priority of Wenger and it think he gonna have him.The guy is real good and will be a damm good recrue for team.I dont know Edin Dzeko but i hope for the best.

think we should wait and see how the Madrid rumours pan out before anything.

About the only thing that's looking almost certain is Adebayor's departure.

:roll:

[palmyfan]

Rumor,rumor:

Wenger want to buy Matuidi(defensive medfield)and he is also looking for Edin Dzeko.

Matuidi is the priority of Wenger and it think he gonna have him.The guy is real good and will be a damm good recrue for team.I dont know Edin Dzeko but i hope for the best.

think we should wait and see how the Madrid rumours pan out before anything.

About the only thing that's looking almost certain is Adebayor's departure.

:roll:

when you talk about Madrid rumor,you talk about Fabregas and Wenger?

[Stramash]

Rumor,rumor:

Wenger want to buy Matuidi(defensive medfield)and he is also looking for Edin Dzeko.

Matuidi is the priority of Wenger and it think he gonna have him.The guy is real good and will be a damm good recrue for team.I dont know Edin Dzeko but i hope for the best.

think we should wait and see how the Madrid rumours pan out before anything.

About the only thing that's looking almost certain is Adebayor's departure.

:roll:

when you talk about Madrid rumor,you talk about Fabregas and Wenger?

Well, primarily Wenger. If he goes, so will Cesc. If he stays, so will Cesc. Cause and effect Nico, cause and effect.

[Treborz]

I'd just like to say that, out of all the 'big 4' teams I dislike Arsenal the least.

You got any decent nippers we can loan for a season in league one?

[palmyfan]

He will stay.The guy has a real thing for the club and he has something to prove as well.He just had a meeting with the board,where french was almost speaking :roll: and still,he is here,and will be here.

Wenger will not be at Arsenal for ever,but it will be here next year,of that i have no doubt.

But man,he will be great at Madrid,especially if Ribery is coming

[Stramash]

I'd just like to say that, out of all the 'big 4' teams I dislike Arsenal the least.

You got any decent nippers we can loan for a season in league one?

sorry mate; fond as I am of Leeds Utd (and especially the Lorimer/Bremner days), and proud though I am to have run onto the Elland Road pitch in front of 20,000 people, our youngsters are just too damn good for league one. Get back in touch if/when you get back to Championship.

:wink:

[Treborz]

I'd just like to say that, out of all the 'big 4' teams I dislike Arsenal the least.

You got any decent nippers we can loan for a season in league one?

sorry mate; fond as I am of Leeds Utd (and especially the Lorimer/Bremner days), and proud though I am to have run onto the Elland Road pitch in front of 20,000 people, our youngsters are just too damn good for league one. Get back in touch if/when you get back to Championship.

:wink:

I'm talking about your under 14's.

[Stramash]

I'd just like to say that, out of all the 'big 4' teams I dislike Arsenal the least.

You got any decent nippers we can loan for a season in league one?

sorry mate; fond as I am of Leeds Utd (and especially the Lorimer/Bremner days), and proud though I am to have run onto the Elland Road pitch in front of 20,000 people, our youngsters are just too damn good for league one. Get back in touch if/when you get back to Championship.

:wink:

I'm talking about your under 14's.

so was I. :wink:

though Wenger just signed 2 nine year olds who would probably be guaranteed first team football at Leeds.

[Treborz]

I'd just like to say that, out of all the 'big 4' teams I dislike Arsenal the least.

You got any decent nippers we can loan for a season in league one?

sorry mate; fond as I am of Leeds Utd (and especially the Lorimer/Bremner days), and proud though I am to have run onto the Elland Road pitch in front of 20,000 people, our youngsters are just too damn good for league one. Get back in touch if/when you get back to Championship.

:wink:

I'm talking about your under 14's.

so was I. :wink:

though Wenger just signed 2 nine year olds who would probably be guaranteed first team football at Leeds.

We'll take them :!:

[Stramash]

I'd just like to say that, out of all the 'big 4' teams I dislike Arsenal the least.

You got any decent nippers we can loan for a season in league one?

sorry mate; fond as I am of Leeds Utd (and especially the Lorimer/Bremner days), and proud though I am to have run onto the Elland Road pitch in front of 20,000 people, our youngsters are just too damn good for league one. Get back in touch if/when you get back to Championship.

:wink:

I'm talking about your under 14's.

so was I. :wink:

though Wenger just signed 2 nine year olds who would probably be guaranteed first team football at Leeds.

We'll take them :!:

can also offer you the one legged dyslexic short sighted lesbian who cleans the dressing rooms...

(sure there's a joke in there somewhere)

:wink:

[CiaranM]

Rumor,rumor:

Wenger want to buy Matuidi(defensive medfield)and he is also looking for Edin Dzeko.

Matuidi is the priority of Wenger and it think he gonna have him.The guy is real good and will be a damm good recrue for team.I dont know Edin Dzeko but i hope for the best.

think we should wait and see how the Madrid rumours pan out before anything.

About the only thing that's looking almost certain is Adebayor's departure.

:roll:

just about every website i've seen it the last few days is quoting Arsene's "war chest" for new signings as 13-15 million quid plus whatever he raises through sales :!: :!: :roll: :roll:

some have even said wage increases will also have to come from this budget !! :cry:

with that f**king level of investment we'll be lucky to hold onto a top 4 place !!

[Neo]

Rumor,rumor:

Wenger want to buy Matuidi(defensive medfield)and he is also looking for Edin Dzeko.

Matuidi is the priority of Wenger and it think he gonna have him.The guy is real good and will be a damm good recrue for team.I dont know Edin Dzeko but i hope for the best.

think we should wait and see how the Madrid rumours pan out before anything.

About the only thing that's looking almost certain is Adebayor's departure.

:roll:

just about every website i've seen it the last few days is quoting Arsene's "war chest" for new signings as 13-15 million quid plus whatever he raises through sales :!: :!: :roll: :roll:

some have even said wage increases will also have to come from this budget !! :cry:

with that f**king level of investment we'll be lucky to hold onto a top 4 place !!

Maybe time to stock up on Brits. Man U has more British players then the other top 4 teams. I remember the days when Arsenal was a British football club :wink: